The End Is Here. Venom #200 Penciled by Ryan Stegman, Kev Walker, Danilo S. Beyruth, Ron Lim, Guiu Vilanova, Gerardo Sandoval, and Mark Bagley, Colored by Frank Martin, Chris O’Halloran, Jim Campbell, Matt Milla, Alex Sinclair, Chris Sotomayor and Richard Isanove, Lettered by Clayton Cowles.
Forrest Hollingsworth: It’s here. The finale of Donny Cates and Ryan Stegman’s sometimes effortless epic and sometimes fascinatingly flailing Venom run. Years in the making, an impressive array of writers and artists have assembled here to give what feels like a big sendoff to Eddie Brock, and to hint at what the future brings.
And also we’re here to…probably make kinda funny jokes about it! Right, Justin?
Justin Partridge: Ah, goop. We barely knew ye. But Forrest is as correct as he is handsome. Fiends, monsters, fellow goopy citizens, lend us your earholes.
We come now to bury The Cates Era, not to praise it. For the evil that Cates did lives after him. The Good is ‘oft interred with his bones and collected inside increasingly expensive trade collections.
So let it be with Cates. The noble Forrest hath told you that this was “epic” and “failing” intertwined. If they were so, they were grievous faults.
And grievously Cates hath answered them. At least for the most part…
“I Am Home”
Forrest: The book opens with a quasi-time jump/recap on the handful of days or weeks since the conclusion of King in Black. Having assumed the hive mind controlling powers of Knull, Eddie is piloting Symbiotes universe-wide through peacekeeping and peacemaking efforts to warm reception. However, the work is taking a tremendous toll on his body, aging Eddie dramatically as we find him in the throes of an oxymoronic balance between godhood and mundane home life with Dylan, the Venom symbiote, and Sleeper.
I kind of liked this segment, the callbacks to Space Knight and Venom: The End included, but it’s hard not to see this kind of dramatic aging and not think of works like King Thor which had a long preceding run that really felt it deserved the epiologic structure more than this does. I also take issue with the symbiote being reduced from romantic partner to glorified guard dog, but that might be a “me” problem.
What’s the goop troupe verdict on time skips, Justin?
Justin: I am less enamored with it than you are, but I do absolutely see how and why it was employed.
As Forest said, we open on this finale months after the King in Black with Eddie and Dylan (along with the Venom and Sleeper symbiotes) attempting to live a more domesticated life. To me, this feels like the book Cates has been wanting to write from the start. Just an odd slice of life comic that dives deeper into the relationship between Eddie and Dylan (and their newly freed Symbiote seconds).
I will say, though I think the time jump is a little unearned after the pitched craziness of King in Black, I did also really appreciate the callbacks to the other runs. As well as Eddie finding a sort of “peace”, even with his newly upgraded powerset.
I also did appreciate that Cates is getting into a bit of how much of a physical toll something like this can take on a human being. I think the “epilogue” nature of the scene keeps that slightly at arm’s length, but I do still appreciate the attention to detail Cates has always put into the “taxonomy” of being a symbiote host. It’s a nice bit of grounded texture amid the new “spaciness” of the title.
Would I have appreciated this more had it not been saved for the finale? Totally. But Cates did it now and that’s better than never, I suppose.
Forrest: As a little coda on this home life segment, we see some solo time between Dylan and the Venom symbiote. Cates follows-up on the much earlier seeded plot point of Eddie not knowing the symbiote’s name with a bit of a cop out, the symbiote saying its name is unpronounceable with human vocal cords. Still, it sharing its name with Dylan via Vulcan-like psychic link was touching and appropriately alien. The whole book strikes that kind of tone, a reverence for what came before and what comes next, but also a kind of rushed hollowness — it feels like Cates and Stegman are already invested elsewhere.
Justin: OH ABSOLUTELY it does. But that’s also kind of a frustrating microcosm of the whole run, isn’t it? Great emotionality and character texture that ends up being buried by a not-that-great plot. It would have been disappointing, I think, if Cates stopped that NOW, right at the end.
Forrest: Okay I would call out Eddie taking time out of being a God to have lunch with Spider-Man as a weird choice narratively for a finale, but given that it’s an oversized issue it doesn’t seem as egregious as it would be normally, and I admit it is for good reason.
The best written segment in the book in my opinion, Cates does a lot with a little here. He absolves Peter of any Symbiote guilt, Eddie revealing that they have been on Earth for a lot longer than Secret Wars would imply, and he sets up the Council of Reeds – The Maker chief among them – as the next major villain for new series writers Ram V and Al Ewing across conversations with The Avengers, The Quiet Council, The Silver Surfer, and The Guardians of the Galaxy. Also, I hope the joke is that both Pete and Eddie are wrong about the difference between omnipresence, omnipotence, and omniscience, but who can say.
I find there’s appropriateness to it all, giving Eddie a bit of an uneasy redemption, and negotiating the kind of universal importance that Symbiote stories should have now, both by virtue of selling billions of copies and by being connected to more or less every 616 character (even if not everyone picks up the codex thing after Cates).
Justin, there’s been a lot of rumors about this run ending prematurely, King in Black meaning to act more like an introduction to the third act than the finale. What’s your take?
Justin: I mean, I think this issue definitely feels truncated. And the odd shift Marvel PR took from King in Black being “The Next Chapter of Venom” to “The FINAL Chapter of Venom” is definitely cause for suspicion too.
But you are right, it feels like a lot of these cameos are Cates trying to burn through a lot of set ups that he had planned for post-King in Black.
By connecting Eddie to basically every major team currently operating in the 616 and building up some major set up for the Maker and Ultimate Universe’s return, we see either the makings of a new arc. Or, more likely, some major groundwork for Phillip Kennedy Johnson’s taking over of the title. For the most part, I kinda land on “Just Okay” with a lot of this stuff, but the Spider-Man scene absolutely deserves a special shoutout.
For one, I think it’s rather bold of Cates to end this run with something so small. While I think all the set up stuff hamstrings the emotions he’s working with, seeing Peter and Eddie just sitting and talking is a real treat. Especially since most of their conversation is rooted in the deep historical connections between the characters and Peter’s massive guilt-complex that has defined his whole costumed career.
I truly would have been okay if the WHOLE issue was just this, to be totally honest.
Forrest: Ultimately, I think Cates and Stegman’s run has done enough renegotiating of Eddie and the Symbiote’s place in the Marvel universe to deserve this kind of grand sendoff, but it does seem we’re rushing towards emotional conclusions that should’ve been given more breathing room. It’s also weird, just conceptually, that this is meant to be those two’s goodbye and half of the book is split between different writers and artists. Not least of which is up next!
Justin: A double shot of goop! Don’t say we ain’t ever gave y’all anything.
“The One You Should Have Killed”
Forrest: So, if the epic length of our introductory credits and the credits page in the book itself didn’t make it clear enough, there’s a lot going on here. Specifically, there’s a whole Flash Thompson story stuffed in here. Phillip Kennedy Johnson, author of the upcoming Extreme Carnage takes over the reins to do an interstitial thing exploring Flash’s return to life (there’s a coffee size joke straight out of the mid 2000s), and I think, a hint at other Symbiotes living among us in secret?
I was a little confused about what exactly was going on narratively and completely put off by the dramatic change in art style and quality, to be honest. This is decidedly not a good first re-re-re-showing for Flash. Knowing you like the character a bit more than me, what did you make of this Justin?
Justin: Okay, for the most part, I am VERY excited to see Flash Thompson coming back. Though Eddie always takes the crown as the “iconic” Venom, for my money, Flash has always been MY Venom. And it’s wonderful to see him getting the starring role again, under the pens of someone who also genuinely likes him and has a greater understanding of a mind and personality honed by military service (and how said service can and will fuck you up).
BUT, all that said, this sequence is sloppy as hell. While Cates had done a lot of legwork to set up the possible return of the ULTS Universe and set up Eddie and Dylan’s new status quos in the 616, I genuinely had NO idea where Flash was during this scene. We get a BIT of lampshading as to the new crackdown on Aliens (not THOSE Aliens, that’s PKJ’s other gig) as well as a quick look at just WHY people are so afraid of symbiotes again.
But we don’t really have any real “grounding” elements for us here to orient the action. Is Flash on OUR Earth again? Is HE in the Ultimates Universe now? That would explain why no one recognizes him. Remember Flash was a pretty known quantity in New York and on the Secret Avengers before his death, but is that now thrown to the wayside to supplement his latest return?
Further, is HIS Symbiote connected to Eddie’s hive? Is he completely on his own, like the new Venom? None of these questions are answered and I would have liked just a BIT more information beyond “Flash is back”. Even though, just for the record, I AM very, very excited Flash is back.
Forrest: Look, Venom books are usually dark but the tonal gulf between Dylan happily crying over an emotional breakthrough with his alien dog and an innocent bystander’s head exploding all over a cute cafe was maybe a little much for me to navigate. Surprisingly little else to say about this, though! I don’t think it will make much sense until Extreme Carnage starts in earnest.
Justin: It ain’t a Venom book unless one rando gets turned into jelly before the issue is over.
“You Sure About The Chains?”
Forrest: So, we skipped over a bit in our summaries above specifically because I wanted to hone in on Dylan and the Symbiote’s relationship as the finale, much like Cates himself does. In a nod to well…Todd McFarlane and Cates’ own merchandise Dylan takes on an all new, all different, hulking, Venom form that’s kind of a mix between McFarlane and Larsen’s takes in the ‘90s and Spawn himself. It’s not bad at all really, but the self reference, cementing Dylan as a childlike self insert of Cates did make me laugh out loud. There’s just so little emotion here, it’s all masculine artifice!
The big takeaway, naturally, is that Dylan and the Symbiote will continue to call themselves Venom which leaves a bit of a loophole in the previously released press for Ram V and Al Ewing’s upcoming run, which said Eddie and Venom are involved, but not specifically who was in the suit. As a fan of a good chunk of Remender and Bunn’s runs, I’m very open to the idea of Venom existing outside of Eddie, and given that Dylan has been stripped of his powers this seems a sensible way to do it. Either way, there’s not a lot to grab onto in particular here, it’s the very obvious conclusion to Cates’ time with the book, but I do respect it as a means to move the story and the character forward as opposed to the legendary Daredevil bet where the preceding reader makes Matt’s story as difficult as possible for the incoming writer to pick up.
Justin, How long until we get a “Venoms” title in the vein of “Spider-Men”?
Justin: DON’T SAY THAT TOO LOUDLY or else Frank “The Tank” Tieri is gonna get a call!
But I am glad we are taking this on with it’s own section. Because it’s…a lot to parse through. Even beyond the truly striking tonal whiplash you spoke about above.
Starting with what works (for me, at least), I DO really like the idea of Venom inching toward being a “legacy” character. One of the things Cates always talked about in the press for this run was how he really wanted to add to the Venom mythos, thus elevating the character back to the A-list status he had in the 90s (and in the eyes of Cates himself).
I think this passing of the goopy torch to Dylan is a big move toward that goal. Sure, all the hivemind nonsense and constant putting over of Knull seemed to be the larger scale plans, but I think THIS is the real example of what Cates really intended. Him also keeping it all fairly focused on the dynamic between Dylan and Eddie is smart, as he’s always working better with this kind of pathos-first brand of storytelling.
But, like you mentioned, it’s very weird how…un-energetic all these feels. How it just feels like, especially toward the end of the issue, how he’s just marking off plot boxes he needed to get to. None of it has any weight, really. Nowhere near the weight the Spider-Man and Eddie sequence does. You would think, since Dylan is the purely original construct here, that he would get the lion’s share of the emotional weight, but he really doesn’t.
I am genuinely hoping that Ram V and PKJ pick up this baton eventually. Even if Cates just kind of limply hands it over.
Forrest: I have to say I’m honestly surprised at the lack of actual narrative content here, especially for an oversized finale issue that’s received a lot of buzz, I expected more theology, more Annie, more romance, more something but we can only review the comic for what’s in it and not what we want to be. A natural feeling finale, but maybe not as satisfying one as could’ve been.
Justin: OH ABSOLUTELY SAME. It just…ends. Which after the bombast and importance placed on this run and it’s multiple events, is really disappointing.
Forrest: And that does it for us! But, with respect to Eiji Aonuma before me, I have to say there’s one more thing…
I’m pleased to announce that my good friend Vishal Gullapalli and I will see you in November for Ram V(enom) and Al Ewing’s new take on the Venom title! Be there or be gooped…you might get gooped if you’re there too but you know what I mean. ‘Til next time!
Justin: May the goop have mercy on your souls. I will miss you terribly, Forrest, but Vishal is a wonderful writing partner and he’s almost as handsome as you are!
I can’t wait to see what I’m assigned to next! Surely it won’t be as frustrating and heavy-handed as this!
*Justin is handed a note by Zachary Jenkins, who then scurries off set with an impish grin*
FANTASTIC FOUR?! GODDAMMIT!
Marvelous Musings
- X-writer Robert Secundus pointed out to us that King Kong Jr’s dad has already been brought to the main universe as a college aged student, there’s some editorial mishaps here timeline wise!
- Millions of goths worldwide have wished they could travel via bat cloud since the halcyon days of Castlevania.
- Eddie calling the symbiote “old friend” is really the seal on the whole Cates can’t write queer romance textually or subtextually thing.
- It’s the opinion of this column that chains are in fact cool.
- Truly do appreciate Jack O’ Lantern being this run’s Wile E. Coyote. He only exists in this book to get the shit beaten out of him by a Venom. It is very funny.
Forrest is an experimental AI that writes and podcasts about comic books and wrestling coming to your area soon.
